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tsmspace
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curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantageFeb 2, 2020 0:11:27 GMT

Post by tsmspace on Feb 2, 2020 0:11:27 GMT

So, it's commonly said that a curved sword is "effectively sharper" because of the way that the blade approaches at an increasing angle as the blade moves deeper into the cut.

-basically, using a straight blade at an angle is sharper because the distance from the edge to the middle of the blade is longer at an angle, meaning that in the blades direction of travel the angle of the blade is more acute.

-also a curved blade has a gradually changing angle as the blade moves straight across a cut and still held at such an angle, because the distance traveled at that angle increases as you move toward the tip of the blade.

However, I don't recall seeing any suggestions that the rotation of the swing of a blade might result in more speed when using a curved blade, ,,,, I'm not saying that it IS that way, I'm merely having thought so just now, having been swinging my sword, that this might actually be true.

when you swing a straight sword, the sword has multiple rotations. It rotates around your body, and also it rotates around your wrist. It also Both of these rotations combined results in a particular speed at any particular part of the blade, which increases linearly due to its own rotation, plus any translation that results from the rotation around your body. (the speed is more like your hand speed plus the speed of the blades rotation, because your swing is not simply the same as a pendulum around your center of balance).

If you swing a curved sword, the sword should effectively hit the target FURTHER from the handle than if you were to hit the same distance of target with a straight sword. Therefore, should the curved sword ALSO result in higher impact speed than the straight sword??

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curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantageFeb 2, 2020 2:03:27 GMTvia mobile

Post by randomnobody on Feb 2, 2020 2:03:27 GMT

There's been a lot of discussion on this topic in the past, none of the finer details of which I can remember right now.

Basically, the difference isn't that significant. I'll let the smarter people explain why.

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curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantageFeb 2, 2020 2:12:47 GMT

Post by Lord Newport on Feb 2, 2020 2:12:47 GMT

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Feb 2, 2020 2:03:27 GMT randomnobody said:

There's been a lot of discussion on this topic in the past, none of the finer details of which I can remember right now.

Basically, the difference isn't that significant. I'll let the smarter people explain why.

One of the dumber people who knows that but would like to hear it explained by a smarter person...

“Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.” ----Sen. Barry Goldwater
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ----Benjamin Franklin

tsmspace
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curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantageFeb 2, 2020 3:51:17 GMT

Post by tsmspace on Feb 2, 2020 3:51:17 GMT

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Feb 2, 2020 2:03:27 GMT randomnobody said:

There's been a lot of discussion on this topic in the past, none of the finer details of which I can remember right now.

Basically, the difference isn't that significant. I'll let the smarter people explain why.

well, on the other hand, and I guess where I'm coming from, , we could be talking about a situation where a tiny increase in energy (because it is concentrated onto a blade, which is a very small surface), is actually quite a large increase in energy.

so, when cutting , it might not take that much more energy to have a much deeper cut.

so, like, what if I cut you as hard as I can with my sword. ,, now, what if I cut you 1% deeper,,, or better question, how much deeper does 1% more energy cut you?? then,, how much MORE damage to the body is 1% deeper (when being slashed with a sword). Also, some material in the body is tough, like bones, but what if I slash the belly,, that little bit more energy might mean several more organs are damaged, or sufficiently cutting important arteries in the armpit ,,, So, although when chopping melons and water bottles, you might not see an impressive difference, perhaps it meant the winner or loser enough times to matter??

Last Edit: Feb 2, 2020 3:58:34 GMT by tsmspace

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curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantageFeb 2, 2020 4:22:10 GMTvia mobile

Post by randomnobody on Feb 2, 2020 4:22:10 GMT

Considering most cuts are either fatal or not, 1%, 10%, 50% won't make much difference.

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curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantageFeb 2, 2020 10:30:20 GMTvia mobile

Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2020 10:30:20 GMT

I didn't read much because I feel like a lot of the katana cutting power is based on misconception.

The curve, which is slight, of a katana, aids in the DRAW angle. It's stiff blade aids against botched cuts. It's not about contact area. It's not a tulwar. It's about edge hardness and sharpness, it's stuff forgiving blade, and the aid in the draw

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curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantageFeb 2, 2020 11:13:01 GMT

Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 2, 2020 11:13:01 GMT

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Feb 2, 2020 0:11:27 GMT tsmspace said:

If you swing a curved sword, the sword should effectively hit the target FURTHER from the handle than if you were to hit the same distance of target with a straight sword. Therefore, should the curved sword ALSO result in higher impact speed than the straight sword??

If you hit a target with your hand at the same distance from the target, you hit with the blade the same distance from the handle, as measured in a straight line, which is what matters as far as speed due to rotation. With many curved swords (but not all), the sword will need to rotate further before it hits the target, and this can change the speed somewhat (and often lower than higher).

There are advantages when cutting with typical curved blades, but I don't think more speed is one of them. The advantages that are there are not always large enough to matter. Two advantages relate to edge alignment:


  • If the centre of mass of the sword is behind a line through the hilt, this helps edge alignment during the swing.

  • If the point of contact is behind the centre of mass (and, ideally, behind a line through the hilt), this helps maintain edge alignment during the cut.

One other advantage:


  • The edge being at an angle to the impact helps encourage a slicing draw cut.

The first advantage can be lost with canted hilts. This sword, while curved, doesn't have either of the first two advantages:
curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantage | SBG Sword Forum (11)
and the top sword here:
curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantage | SBG Sword Forum (12)
(from www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/popular/2/ps2-2.htm) doesn't have the first.

The middle angled sword here:
curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantage | SBG Sword Forum (13)
will give at least the 1st and 3rd benefits.

Even with a completely straight sword, it's possible to deliver the classic from-the-shoulder draw cut, and some hilts (e.g., Viking hilts) encourage it. This is done by hitting with a more "hand forward" cut, more pulling the sword through the target than chopping into it. This doesn't give the 1st 2 benefits, but does give the 3rd. Cuts like this sacrifice significant impact speed (because there is less rotation of the sword) for more effective slicing, so there's more to doing a lot of damage than impact speed.

A katana isn't curved enough to do much with the 3rd advantage above. Plenty of cutting videos out there with a complete absence of slicing (and these cuts go through tatami, through water bottles, etc.). More strongly curved single-handed swords get more benefit from this, and some videos out there show cuts that start out with no slicing turn into slicing draw cuts due to resistance in the target. So this is a real effect, but the amount of effect varies with the sword. (And it's probably a useful effect if the target is wearing thick clothing.)

"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.

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curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantageFeb 2, 2020 13:03:17 GMT

Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 2, 2020 13:03:17 GMT

Swords are tools designed for specific purposes. None are good at everything. I think it's more important to know the capabilities and limitations of your blade and then properly train with it.

As far as cutting is concerned; put a pot roast on a cutting stand. Hit it with a curved blade, then do the same with a straight one. Look at the damage. Now pretend that the pot roast is your own shoulder. Now ask yourself which blade would you like to be hit with. If the answer is "neither", then you now understand the practical difference between a straight and a curved blade on the cut.

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curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantageFeb 2, 2020 15:11:23 GMT

Post by pgandy on Feb 2, 2020 15:11:23 GMT

There are probably several factors that come into play making it having no simple answer. Matt Easton included this in one of his videos that I was unable to find unfortunately as it had a simple answer. But in short he said the contact area of a straight blade distributed its force over a greater area thereby decreases the psi (my words not his) while the curved blade concentrated its energy in a smaller area and thereby increasing the psi (again the psi is my word not his). Below are two crude drawings that may help to clarify the above.

As an afterthought this could be likened to the point penetrating so easily as the force is concentrated in such a small area.

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curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantageFeb 2, 2020 16:55:09 GMTvia mobile

Post by theophilus736 on Feb 2, 2020 16:55:09 GMT

Good convo. I think Eastons points are probably some of the least sophisticated though. So much could impact how much of the blade is contacting a target, and skin/muscle isnt a straight line in paint, so by the time a cut starts (if it isnt a draw cut but just a straight forward force being applied) I'm thinking a curved and straight blade wouldnt be impacting significantly different amounts of area on the target.

Edit: that said Pgandy, your comment is very useful to the conversation and helping me think it through. The above wasnt a criticism of your comment or your paint skills curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantage | SBG Sword Forum (19)

Last Edit: Feb 2, 2020 16:56:10 GMT by theophilus736

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curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantageFeb 2, 2020 16:58:45 GMTvia mobile

Post by randomnobody on Feb 2, 2020 16:58:45 GMT

I think that's the gist of what it came to. No sword is ever hitting anything at a parallel line, so area of impact is just not relevant.

Last Edit: Feb 2, 2020 17:04:24 GMT by randomnobody

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curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantageFeb 2, 2020 18:00:12 GMT

Post by pgandy on Feb 2, 2020 18:00:12 GMT

Of course in life there would be no straight lined target nor did Easton demonstrate on himself with a straight line. The line in the drawing was for illustration purposes only, not to be taken literally.

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I should start my own business...

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curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantageFeb 2, 2020 18:10:16 GMT

Post by Lancelot Chan on Feb 2, 2020 18:10:16 GMT

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Feb 2, 2020 18:08:18 GMT Jordan Williams said:

I reccomend reading this book for anyone interested in a look into this topic as it was researched in an era when swords were used and tested for more than recreation.

www.amazon.com/Memoir-Swords-Etc-Classic-Reprint/dp/028225000X

Would you mind sharing with us the findings and insights of this book about this topic?

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curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantageFeb 2, 2020 19:31:38 GMTvia mobile

Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2020 19:31:38 GMT

I still stand by that when it comes to a tulwar, contact surface is a factor, but a katana doesn't have enough curve for that, yet it cuts amazing. I think it has to do with an angle that aids a draw cut. What I learned with katana use, is its designed to draw, but not in the same, close to the body style, as a tulwar does

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curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantageFeb 2, 2020 19:44:55 GMTvia mobile

Post by randomnobody on Feb 2, 2020 19:44:55 GMT

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Feb 2, 2020 18:00:12 GMT pgandy said:

Of course in life there would be no straight lined target nor did Easton demonstrate on himself with a straight line. The line in the drawing was for illustration purposes only, not to be taken literally.

Of course; but it seems many are under the impression that they're chopping into a flat surface, flatly. Most of what a sword contacts will be round, and the blade should generally contact at an angle, and be drawn across. So it's not like there's a lot of contact area to reduce.

Edge alignment seems easier with curved blades, though, so that may be a greater factor.

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curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantageFeb 2, 2020 20:01:05 GMT

Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 2, 2020 20:01:05 GMT

I think, looking at the facts and evidence, that there are just too many variables to say one is better than the other. Curved blades are easier to draw, and edge alignment is more forgiving. Straight blades are easier to make and are arguably more effective at finding chinks in armor. Cutting is more or less equal, depending on a thousand random variables between blades. I don't know. I think it's more of an academic discussion than a practical one, I certainly am not comfortable making a declarative statement one way or the other.

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curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantageFeb 2, 2020 20:10:19 GMT

Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 2, 2020 20:10:19 GMT

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Feb 2, 2020 18:10:16 GMT Lancelot Chan said:

curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantage | SBG Sword Forum (32)

Feb 2, 2020 18:08:18 GMT Jordan Williams said:

I reccomend reading this book for anyone interested in a look into this topic as it was researched in an era when swords were used and tested for more than recreation.

www.amazon.com/Memoir-Swords-Etc-Classic-Reprint/dp/028225000X

Would you mind sharing with us the findings and insights of this book about this topic?

A free version: archive.org/details/MemoirSwords/page/n4/mode/2up

Basically, overall, he loves yataghans, and thinks everybody should use them. And that the cavalry should train better, actually cutting and thrusting with their swords.

For cutting, he gives a geometric explanation of why having the blade at an angle to the cut at the point of contact (my third point above in my first post) is good, but this is somewhat pseudo-science. Anyway, he likes draw cuts. Speed matters so light swords are good. He likes Mameluke hilts (i.e., Ottoman-style hilts).

"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.

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curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantageFeb 2, 2020 20:16:50 GMT

Post by Lancelot Chan on Feb 2, 2020 20:16:50 GMT

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Feb 2, 2020 20:10:19 GMT Timo Nieminen said:

curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantage | SBG Sword Forum (35)

Feb 2, 2020 18:10:16 GMT Lancelot Chan said:

Would you mind sharing with us the findings and insights of this book about this topic?

A free version: archive.org/details/MemoirSwords/page/n4/mode/2up

Basically, overall, he loves yataghans, and thinks everybody should use them. And that the cavalry should train better, actually cutting and thrusting with their swords.

For cutting, he gives a geometric explanation of why having the blade at an angle to the cut at the point of contact (my third point above in my first post) is good, but this is somewhat pseudo-science. Anyway, he likes draw cuts. Speed matters so light swords are good. He likes Mameluke hilts (i.e., Ottoman-style hilts).

Thanks a lot for the sharing. :D

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curved sword vs. straight sword, katana cutting advantageFeb 2, 2020 21:02:56 GMTvia mobile

Post by randomnobody on Feb 2, 2020 21:02:56 GMT

Mmm, yataghans. Now there's a curved sword we should be talking about.

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FAQs

Do curved swords cut better than straight swords? ›

Conclusion & Duel Winner. Curved swords are great for cutting, while straight swords are best for stabbing. Straight swords work well in battle against armor, while curved swords are good for cavalry and against enemies without armor.

Are curved swords better for slashing? ›

Curved blades were especially useful when it came to cavalry. Needing less accuracy than a stabbing weapon, it's supposedly easier to wield from atop a moving horse. Being a weapon that depends on momentum, the speed and power from a charge can add to the slashing damage.

Why is a curved blade better than a straight blade? ›

Curved swords are easier to make a drawing/pulling cut with than straight-edged swords because no matter what what attacking motion you make (chopping at a perpendicular, making a genuine drawing cut swing, etc.), the blade will "run" along the target due to the curvature of the blade rather than bite into the target ...

What is the advantage of a curved sword? ›

The curve of the blade allows for a more efficient slicing motion, enabling deep cuts and maximizing the cutting surface. Curved swords excel at slashing attacks, especially against unarmored or lightly armored opponents.

What is the best sword for cutting and stabbing? ›

The katana, with its living tradition of practice, is well known for demonstrating its cutting power. Its single, hardened, wedge-like edge has long been shown to be capable of extraordinary sharpness. The longsword, has not acquired a similar reputation.

Why did Europeans use straight swords? ›

Most men-at-arms had to make do with cheaper swords, relying on chopping and battering their opponents. Thus the heavy straight swords, acting more like bludgeoning tools, did not require razor-sharp edges. The weight of the sword influenced the technique with which it was used in fighting.

Why did Muslims have curved swords? ›

Nomadic horsemen learned from experience that a curved edge is better for cutting strikes because the arc of the blade matches that of the sweep of the rider's arm as they slash the target while galloping. Turks, Mongols, Rajputs and Sikhs used scimitars in warfare, among many other peoples.

Are curved swords faster than katanas? ›

The kitanas have better range, but the curved swords hit faster and more often. I think Katanas, BUT I'd also say go against the grain and go dual curved.

What is the best cutting blade shape? ›

The popularity of the drop point blade shape is attributed to its combination of robustness, adaptability and precision. This common blade shape is found on various types of knives such as hunting knives, pocket knives and even some tactical knives.

Why are Japanese blades curved? ›

The Curve Allows for More Efficient Cutting

One of the most remarkable attributes of a katana is its cutting ability. The curve of the blade is ingeniously designed to enhance this capability. It offers the advantage of a more effective slicing action due to the curvature concentrating force into a smaller area.

Why did people make curved swords? ›

The curved sabers could slash opponents and slide off as the horsemen rode by. Another advantage was that curved blades were more compact than straight ones, so horsemen were also able to slash from side to side without worrying about trimming the ears off their horses.

Do curved swords cut better? ›

The curved sword is the king of the cut. They can slice and dice someone up. better than any other sword out there. And the reason for that, among other things, is the geometry of the blade.

Why did Egyptians use curved swords? ›

utilized curved bronze blades. is because when you try to cast bronze, if it's too long, the blade is not going to cool evenly. So if you were trying to make a heavier sword. that was capable of hacking through an opponent shield, you were not able to do that with bronze. Unless you curved the blade.

What is the most effective type of sword? ›

Some are better in specific situations while others are suited for different scenarios.
  1. Best for Slashing & Cutting – Katana. ...
  2. Best for Thrusting – Gladius. ...
  3. Best for One-on-One Combat (Without Rules) – Longsword. ...
  4. Best for Duels – Rapier. ...
  5. Best Range Advantage – Zweihander. ...
  6. Best for Utility Tasks – Machete.

Are curved fan blades better? ›

The curved blade design, combined with the larger blade size, enables better airflow control and reduces energy losses, resulting in improved overall efficiency. Better Performance at Higher Pressures: Unlike forward curved fans, backward curved fans excel at higher pressure applications.

Should swords be bendy? ›

European swords were made of spring steel to make them more durable. A stiffer sword that was not “bendy" could end up just breaking or getting permanently bent, while an European sword would just spring back into shape.

Why are curved swords better for cavalry? ›

The preference for using a curved sword on horseback came from the discovery that a cutting blow delivered in a downward and backward slicing action from a height actually elongated the amount of blade that came into contact with the enemy's body.

References

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